I feel I should start by defining my understanding of the terms for types of fun:

Type 1: This is something like playing board games with friends/hanging out around a camp fire/going out drinking, reading a great book in front of the fire depending how introverted/extroverted one is. Basically it's all fun and very little sweat is involved.

Type 2: Is something like you described as a three hour bike ride, for me it also going hiking, snowboarding and number of other forms out of outdoor exercise that are strenuous but I still am actively enjoying it at the time. When I took my year long sabbatical at 31 I spend much of it on type 2 fun. The next year when I discovered MMM and realized FIRE was a real option I envisioned spending much of my time having type 2 fun with some type 1 in the evenings... I have never thought of DIY projects as a type of fun even though I often enjoy them, more on this in a minute.

Type 3: This is not actually fun at the time, but the memory is a good one later... Examples from my life include spending all night on semi broken sail boat in the gulf of Mexico during a small craft advisory with all of my siblings... it was not fun, little sleep was had, but now that we made it through its a fun story. Also getting caught in a blizzard overnight at 12k ft. in Norther NM, packing 85 lbs. 9 miles down a steep muddy trail in the sleet knowing I'd have to 18 miles the next day to get the rest of the camp, crossing Mt Tongariro (the setting for Mt Doom) in freezing rain... none of these were amazing fun at the time, although with a good attitude they were mildly enjoyable and now they are all good memories. I mostly find myself in type 3 situations while pursuing type 2 and something goes off plan, but I know some people actively pursue it.

DIY: I've always seen even the many enjoy able DIY tasks I do as part of being a responsible adult and not a type of fun. I've done my own car maintenance because I would rather do it than spending more time working and pay someone else to do it. The same has been true of home repairs, hand stitching my clothes to get another year our of them etc. It also aligns with my general value of stewardship of resources my own and our collective ones... In FIRE the math on the financial side is starting to get questionable, but I still have the same stewardship values. Side note, I also included going to the gym in this category, because while I do often enjoy it at least a little, I'm really there to stay in good enough shape to go out side as soon as the weather is nice again.

To the question:

About 18 months ago DW and I adopted a new born baby. The first months were really hard. However in the last few months I think interreacting with DS had probably provided as much type 1 fun as has been lost elsewhere to as you termed it the "time suck". However type 2 fun is probably down at least 90% and still hasn't recovered. I have less time foe type 2 fun now than I did at any point in my working career. This has been a real problem for me and I'm still trying to figure it out. If raising children is a type of fun, I would mostly label it type 3 so far... but the category I've actually put it in is the same a DIY projects, part of being a responsible adult... There are more rewarding projects and less rewarding projects and I do feel much more accomplished when I replace brakes on my friends truck and save a him $1000 or move my own furnace and save myself $2500 than when I keep the toddler alive another day. My DIY projects have actually increased since fatherhood and thinking about it now I suspect there are three reasons. One is that I feel even more compelled to be a good steward now that I am a father. The second is projects around the property can be done in nap size bites, while epic hikes and bike rides can't. The third is that I don't feel comfortable with the idea of having someone else take care of DS just so that I can go hiking, but it's acceptable to do so for productive tasks. So I am currently doing a DIY and addition on the house and will have even less time for type 2 fun for the next 8 months... Although I have hired contractors for a few things that I "could" have done myself to save time.

I have experienced some of the shift you described with DIY tasks with chores which I never really enjoyed anyway. I used to optimize the dishwasher for most efficient water/energy use. Now I optimize for time and convenience. I used to take better care of the yard and keep a cleaner house than I do now. I'm less fastidious about turning off random lights DW leaves on and even find myself doing it sometimes now.

If you find yourself less interested in doing type 2 fun activities now, does it bother you to lose them, or is it just something you've noticed shifting? I find myself worried than if I spend 5-10 years not doing them, I will never get back into it again.

For me it is about conservation of energy.  It's much easier to go on a 3 hour bike ride if I know I can come home and have a shower and something to eat right away then maybe take a nap, vs having to come home and make everyone something to eat then clean the kitchen.

When the kids get older they can hike or bike with you then they are just as tired as you are and you get some rest afterwards.  When babies they can ride in a backpack but they usually sleep the whole time then need a bunch of attention from you when you get back.

This is a great point. I also find getting started it is now much more challenging to overcome the inertia to get out there. When it was just me I could frequently be out the door in under 15 minutes for a local adventure and 30 for longer trip. Those numbers at least doubled after getting married and doubled again with DS. It's only a 20 minute drive from my porch to world class hiking... but when I expect it will take an hour to get in the car, I am much more inclined to just walk around the neighborhood.

Quote from: Morning Glory on October 16, 2024, 01:52:30 PM

For me it is about conservation of energy.  It's much easier to go on a 3 hour bike ride if I know I can come home and have a shower and something to eat right away then maybe take a nap, vs having to come home and make everyone something to eat then clean the kitchen.

When the kids get older they can hike or bike with you then they are just as tired as you are and you get some rest afterwards.  When babies they can ride in a backpack but they usually sleep the whole time then need a bunch of attention from you when you get back.

This is a great point. I also find getting started it is now much more challenging to overcome the inertia to get out there. When it was just me I could frequently be out the door in under 15 minutes for a local adventure and 30 for longer trip. Those numbers at least doubled after getting married and doubled again with DS. It's only a 20 minute drive from my porch to world class hiking... but when I expect it will take an hour to get in the car, I am much more inclined to just walk around the neighborhood.

But it's worth it because they are soooo much calmer in the evening if they spend a few hours being active outside.

What @FINate said.

But it is good to train your kids to like type 2 fun as they get older. The family adventures you have will be amazing.

If that doesn’t work or the kids just aren’t into it, you can definitely get back into it once they are grown. There is a reason tons of Iron Man athletes are in their 50s.

Hmm, yeah that's an interesting thought.  My kids are only 5 and 2.5, so they obviously don't get the idea of type 2 fun yet, but maybe I need to start modeling this behavior intentionally so they learn to like it. 

Any other thoughts on trying to train kids to enjoy hard but rewarding things?

Fuck no.  When my son was younger I needed those 3+ hour bike rides more than ever before to clear my head and keep my sanity.  This required some serious re-planning of things in my life to make time (and required cutting back on a lot of other things I love - there's only so much time/energy to go around.)  Worth it though.  I have trouble keeping myself in good mental shape without regular strenuous exercise.  Cutting it off tends to lead me down a downward depressive spiral.

Any other thoughts on trying to train kids to enjoy hard but rewarding things?

Literally anything can be hard but rewarding if there's passion for it.  Keep trying them on stuff until you find something that they really, really love to do.  Something that they would happily give up screen time for.  Then nurture and encourage that thing.

I tried my son on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a couple years ago on a whim and he really liked it . . . despite it being hot, sweaty, and often uncomfortable.  He's training four nights a week now, competing every couple months in tournaments, and does weight lifting/drilling at home to improve.  It doesn't have to be sports related though - can be art, music, math (I mean, theoretically I guess) but it just has to be something they really want to do.  Granted, 5 years old is pretty young still . . . but depending on the kid by the time they're seven or eight they should be getting to the point where they can find a passion.

Training your kids to love the outdoors is simply about giving them experiences and opportunities to succeed. Never about forced marches LOL. Well, maybe a little. But the march is only a mile and the forcing is that you won’t carry them on your shoulders for more than half of it.

Hah, yeah my kids love the outdoors—camping, s’mores, biking, digging holes, pointing out FUNGUSAMONGUS etc etc. We’ve even coaxed them on ~1-2mile “walks” to try to see what cool mushrooms they can find. 

It’s not “hard” though, they love doing it, it’s 1000% type 1 fun for them. Maybe that’s the point though, start out fun and then make it awful for them and see if they still like it! (Kidding)

Having a child didn't change my participation in Type 2 activities. 

What changed drastically was my participation in fun that is Type 3 or beyond.  I define this as fun that involves real danger.  Since having a kid, I've slowed down, ceased, or turned down activities that I would have participated in before.  I still feel the pull to do those things, but I want to be around to see my kid grow up. 

After having a kid, I stopped considering jobs in war zones and extremely high threat countries.  I mostly stopped riding motorcycles, although I might get one for Sunday rides if I live in a country where it seems reasonably safe.  When I go fishing in remote areas, I now choose the safe (but longer) route rather than scrambling over a steep ridge.  There are cities that my spouse and I love that we won't live in because of their issues with violent crime.  I used to love smoking cigars but now limit myself to about a dozen a year. 

Everyone has a different tolerance for risk, and mine is still relatively high, but becoming a parent changed my outlook.  I like the adrenaline rush of real risk, but I love my kid more.  My kid is old enough now that I've started teaching her to think about the calculus of risk vs reward and taking responsibility for her own safety, and that's a whole new adventure. 

Yes, especially when they are young. But as they get older it gets so much easier to do the type 2 things with them and a whole new world opens up. When my youngest turned 4 or 5 is when things started to be fun again. However, we put in a ton of effort to lay the groundwork for our kids to enjoy our activities by slogging it out with them when it was zero fun at all.

Lots of good wisdom here. I just want to reiterate a few points:

- Keep doing the big bike rides if that gives you life and space from your kids, even it takes work. Go at 5 a.m. in the summer, etc. You will need that and your kids need to see that you are person beyond being their parent.

- Bring them along in an age-appropriate way. Get them in the bike trailer, then trail-a-bike, then on their own around the neighborhood, and then your six year old is biking 10 miles on the trails with you. Foster their own love or at least competence for what you do (e.g., "we are a biking family") and explore new things together to follow their interests. Snacks and a creative motivation is key, but we've managed to develop kids that usually mostly love biking, playing outside in Alaska winter, rustic cabins, wilderness camping, long car ride adventures (search for playgrounds near the interstate), national park (collecting Jr Ranger pins), tolerate DIY projects, etc. If you present something as normal/low-key and your are prepared and confident, kids will go along and find the fun in it.

Having kids *is* Type 2 fun. You're living it, which is why you don't have a appetite for more :)

I was waiting for someone to say this! If you want to hear more on this, check out Jen Fulwiler's Instagram or podcast. She is bang on about how if you have young children you don't need a daily ice bath to challenge yourself to discomfort because you entire life is one long ice bath. She's hilarious AND perceptive.